What is...Austerity Militarism?

00:00:06: Welcome to Voices, the EISA Podcast.

00:00:09: The space for cutting edge research in the discipline of international relations and the audible companion to EISA – the European International Studies Association.

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00:00:43: Voices, the EISA podcast.

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00:01:02: Please welcome our today's host Polly Palister Wilkins political geographer and associate professor at The University of Amsterdam And board member of the EISA.

00:01:15: What is austerity militarism?

00:01:17: To answer this question and to discuss why this is becoming an important issue for many countries, we are joined today by Malta Laube and Joseph Ward from the University of Sheffield.

00:01:30: Dr Malta Laub works in the Department of Politics & International Relations at The University Of Shefffield where he researches the political economy of policing and criminal justice as well as welfare policy.

00:01:45: Dr.

00:01:46: Joseph Ward is also based in the Department of Politics and International Relations at Sheffield, where he studies constitutional politics and state capacity in the context of rising authoritarianism and growing state competition.

00:02:09: the question that probably all our listeners have already, and that is what is austerity militarism?

00:02:24: How does the concept differ say from simply using increased defence spending.

00:02:30: And what precisely does the concepts capture that?

00:02:34: older ideas such as military Keynesianism doesn't?

00:02:39: The way we approach this?

00:02:42: To start, I think with the observation that there is increased defense spending but then at the same time There's also something else going on namely

00:02:52: That

00:02:52: there isn't an increase or a rediscovery anyway An increased emphasis again on austerity in the realm of broadly speaking social policy Welfare expenditures and so on.

00:03:06: And that this seems to be a relationship between these two movements.

00:03:12: So on the one hand increased defense expenditure, but on the other hand cuts elsewhere.

00:03:18: and The connection seems to us to be both material in a sense that there are certain constraints On state expenditure at the current moment interest rates For the most part But also discursive.

00:03:36: so that is an increasing emphasis.

00:03:40: One is necessary, namely rearmament and the other is increasingly a luxury.

00:03:48: And for us what was interesting about that apart from the fact we think it describes something currently going on It speaks to current conversations being had really everywhere across the world, both in academia and politics.

00:04:07: Namely that currently something fundamental is changing right?

00:04:10: Mark Carney spoke of a rupture That we're living through in the winter And for us what austerity militarism seems to indicate Is that while there might be indeed Something new foot whatever that knew is also very much not necessarily determined, but it is dependent on previous arrangements or previous policy and specifically austerity.

00:04:39: So what we think austerity militarism does to show how the post-global financial crisis in Eurozone crisis' austerity regime of cuts has affected state capacities in a variety ways including military capacities and how these constraints now affect this newly discovered need to reinvest into military capacities in light of, for the most part in Europe a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

00:05:16: And associated targets such as NATO spending goals... ...and overall the impetus of putting more money into defence in a more precarious global of political environment, geo-economic geopolitical environment.

00:05:32: And here for us is the kind of crux of the meta that there's this differential return to state spending also after the Covid pandemic?

00:05:45: Yeah I could add just a couple of points further what Malta said as well.

00:05:50: before speaking a little bit about the military Keynesianism point in thinking about this concept to thread it through the various legacies of austerity that there are and different ways they've affected both politics, economy and society more broadly.

00:06:07: And so trying to situate as Malta was saying what we're seeing is pledges and commitments around defence and military expenditure but within those range of aspects and ways in which austerity continues to affect and constrain different states, and different areas of social policy and spending.

00:06:34: And I think further to that we wanted to incorporate COVID-xXIX and its impact as a particular element of the kind of process because it obviously provoked this enormous range of state interventions out of necessity through crisis and emergency management but also then added huge amounts to balance sheet state and public spending balance sheets.

00:06:57: so that's kind of then reinvigorated some of the different framings and logics around austerity because there is an extended set of pressures around debt, public expenditure.

00:07:11: What can actually we afford as different states in terms of the amount of revenue it could be raised?

00:07:16: So as Malta was saying these geopolitical kind of shifts that have then occurred and many different prominent politicians have spoken about in European contexts.

00:07:27: And trying to wrestle with these different dilemmas, the pressures faced by those different legacies I think particularly in terms of military Keynesianism.

00:07:38: there's something else we wanted do for this concept which was speak a little bit to broader purposes what that is and how.

00:07:48: welfare, warfare are two kind of components to that which are interlinked in different ways although they're often presented as sort of trading off against one another.

00:07:56: In this current moment I think it's interesting to consider.

00:08:01: so there's military Keynesian elements which were essentially i guess through the twentieth century to suggest that we should use military investment to boost demand and then effectively see that filter through the economy and multiply in.

00:08:16: but obviously it's a more complicated story than that, in the kind of impetus behind Keynesianism initially was already on states which were quite well developed and had extensive warfare infrastructures.

00:08:29: So I think when we now think about what is often an convenient utilisation around things like Keynesians by politicians in particular its actually given changing nature of military investment and brought a composition of economies in societies the extent of welfare states.

00:08:51: So actually, I mean maybe it never was the case that actually military investment produced the returns that it was claimed to in this sort of context.

00:08:58: but now i think the evidence is increasingly scant.

00:09:03: so with this concept we're trying to kind of speak to those broader purposes around state scrutinise properly what claims are being made as to the virtues of military investment at the moment, whether they're actually grounded in that evidence.

00:09:18: Thank you.

00:09:19: now In the UK Germany other Western liberal economies like The Netherlands where I'm based Governments appear willing to relax fiscal constraints for defence while maintaining or deepening restraint and welfare public services importantly also green investment.

00:09:43: What is exceptional about the current moment, and you've maybe started to mention a few of these already?

00:09:50: And what makes military expenditure politically an economically different in this specific country?

00:09:58: Certainly from the perspective of state managers there is currently genuine need for increased investment into militaries.

00:10:09: If you are, I think a European head of state or defense minister so You will look at towards the east.

00:10:17: You'll see Russia having invaded Ukraine and not necessarily looking like that Will calm down anytime soon.

00:10:25: And then your'e looking toward west Then you're seeing United States is increasingly retreating from Europe.

00:10:33: Regardless i guess whether standard support of these kinds of developments or against them, I think that is ultimately the analysis we see on political level.

00:10:47: So from their perspective what's different and new has been identified as one of the most important things for them to do at this moment.

00:10:58: That comes with quite interesting political economic period now of the last fifteen years or so, briefly I guess demarcated by two fundamental crises to three depending on your account.

00:11:19: So the global financial crisis and eurozone crisis which we can mush together here a little bit in the late two thousands early two thousand tens first installment of crisis I guess, raising quite fundamental questions about you know the general governance model.

00:11:42: General accumulation regime if we want to call it neoliberalism or not doesn't really matter too much for me but certainly a fundamental question about how things are supposed to continue and that was answered at the time with austerity a lot of which they had undertaken after the global financial crisis to bail out banks and so on.

00:12:07: And then Covid, which... After ten years or more than that of austerity Then suddenly required states to spend big again To intervene quite heavily into their economies Which I think led generally to a kind of first chance that maybe austerity could be abandoned.

00:12:32: That may be there's a different way forward as possible and so on.

00:12:37: But it was very quickly.

00:12:39: We're arguing, but this is very quickly because the size of the expenditure lead.

00:12:45: We can't maintain this in the long run, especially not in an environment of rising interest rates cost-of living crises and so on.

00:12:54: It is not possible to maintain it.

00:12:56: So I think many state managers at the moment feel like ultimately cornered In a sense that they have identified something That they consider very urgent Partially also because austerity has led to them not necessarily investing much, if anything into their militaries for a sustained period of time.

00:13:20: And at the same time they've come to the conclusion that it's actually not really possible to do what we have been doing throughout COVID namely to invest and invest so... That is how I think we approach this question.

00:13:34: What's new?

00:13:35: How does this historically feed through?

00:13:39: On top of legitimation, possibly something productive in this conundrum.

00:13:50: And Joe has just alluded to this a little bit.

00:13:52: when it comes the military kanzenism discussion we see certainly strongly in the UK too lesser degree perhaps in Germany but still...

00:14:04: We

00:14:04: see politicians making the case that this investment into Defense capabilities, generally speaking with the military is not just needed because of security concerns but that it also possibly presents a way forward.

00:14:22: An economic growth strategy right?

00:14:24: The idea of re-industrialization an idea.

00:14:28: there's this multiplier effect to invest into your tanks and so on.

00:14:34: someone needs produce these tanks need higher people etc.

00:14:38: And so there is an idea that there's an economic benefit to this, which we argue also extends then a little bit beyond the pure economic into more political or softer type of legitimacy by which the state shows its ability to act.

00:14:57: Shows his ability to be productive.

00:15:00: something wasn't really the case for the majority of the austerity period, where the image that the state projected on itself was really one-of-it saying we can't do this.

00:15:12: We don't have the money for this.

00:15:15: impossible to act here.

00:15:18: This current moment it appears to us is perceived by statement adjusters as a possible solution of issues, right?

00:15:28: On the one hand address this genuine need for military rearmament.

00:15:32: On the other hand find as a result that new pathway towards growth which has been very tricky in Europe over the last fifteen years or so.

00:15:42: and thirdly on back-of-that kind more productive story if you will a kind of genuine military nation idea, what the state can do and should.

00:15:58: So you've just organised a European workshop in international studies.

00:16:04: that's part of our flagship offerings that the ESA organises every year.

00:16:11: so you've organized one of these on austerity militarism this summer.

00:16:18: And from which angles in this workshop did you and the participants study the concept of austerity militarism?

00:16:27: Where does it currently stand, its development... ...and what are the potential difficulties in approaching it.

00:16:36: I'm assuming there some but maybe they aren't.

00:16:39: so Maybe we can unpack that for us.

00:16:42: Yes!

00:16:43: We have a fantastic workshop in Izmir in summer.

00:16:48: I am a huge fan of the European International Studies Association workshops.

00:16:54: I've been to several of them, Malta and I also i think first met or

00:16:59: maybe

00:17:00: yeah first met one back in there in Amsterdam.

00:17:05: so it was great to be able to kind of put together an event on this and that the kind of emergent project that Malta & I were working addressing the concept and developing a concept, I think it was really rich workshop in terms of starting to pull together different ideas.

00:17:25: And people coming from different perspectives to approach this and seeing that there's something in it... That is pertinent at current moment.

00:17:31: but then being able kind push it up and poke holes into productive way also apply their own case knowledge expertise do you?

00:17:41: There were probably four key themes that emerged from it, that were particularly productive.

00:17:48: I think the first was disciplinary positioning.

00:17:51: so we talked quite a bit about how those of us who come from maybe more political economy background might approach this whereas there is some security studies or international relations and different theoretical perspectives associated with these disciplines would see value in.

00:18:14: it would lead to maybe a different orientation and a different way of viewing the concept.

00:18:20: And I think that was also productive for us, as we've just been discussing like the geopolitical shifts that were seeing.

00:18:31: how will be then situate this in relation to them?

00:18:33: So do you see this is kind of a broader geopolitical phenomenon Is about kind of rise active conflict?

00:18:42: what role does play within and how much is it then also about, how much emphasis has placed on political economic constraints in the changing politics of kind of finance debt money?

00:18:53: a lot different contributors.

00:18:56: Also talked to bit about that And we've often seen exceptions made for this increase in defence spending.

00:19:04: so whilst state managers are sort acknowledging that there are many constraints financially, but actually this is of such an urgency.

00:19:13: That it should be placed outside those and I think that was interesting to look at the interplay area with international relations in geopolitics with political economy kind of dynamics.

00:19:22: so that's one component of it.

00:19:25: another was the spatial geographical scope for concept which i think really interested.

00:19:30: particularly we had some incredibly valuable contributions thinking through in terms of whether there's a sort of Eurocentrism, particularly I think Malta and I would probably just because of the work that we've done previously.

00:19:46: I tend to focus more on kind of Western states UK particular And so he had some contributions looking from global South context other contexts which was suggest actually very different relationship but maybe a more long-standing relationship between austerity and militarization Which i think was very fruitful and maybe, you know we can identify a particular shift towards increases in military expenditure.

00:20:13: In Western economies post twenty-twenty two in particular.

00:20:16: but that actually helps.

00:20:18: seeing it from different geographical perspective helps to open up a range of different ways of thinking through how militarization is an ongoing process in these states.

00:20:29: the West are very interlinked into this processes you know, the states often those post-colonial contexts.

00:20:39: And I think that has a lot of implications then in terms of conceptualization because is it as novel or maybe claimed?

00:20:50: You get quite different outlook on this.

00:20:54: Another was historicisation.

00:20:56: so we've already pointed to this and emphasised what?

00:21:05: to the legacies of post-global financial crisis austerity, but also COVID.

00:21:11: But I think that again related what it was saying before, if we see from a longer term historical perspective... It helps kind understand the role of states in relation and the role warfare is both state development or formation.

00:21:28: more broadly and particularly that kind of potentially awkward question as to, you know the way in which warfare and welfare have been interconnected at different moments in history saying them in that longer term perspective.

00:21:42: Now I think finally on the other three um kind of themes speak to this.

00:21:48: i guess we've had a quite an interesting conversation towards the end of The Workshop as to whether it was the right concept or whether it where the different formulations would be better suited, whether we were kind of capturing whatever it is that we're describing and analyzing accurately.

00:22:09: I think...I don't want to speak for other participants necessarily but I think broadly we concluded that there was all their abouts with that.

00:22:20: But then in terms what we plan on doing this work going forward given its early stages It's also there to be critique, developed changed on the basis of those different other themes that I've pointed out and perspectives people come in it from.

00:22:38: So yeah...it was a really great workshop.

00:22:40: we're planning continue the collaboration with those who were participating.

00:22:45: Well that is purpose for this workshop so i'm sure my fellow board members will very happy know its been productive.

00:22:54: not everything needs neoliberal about these things anyway.

00:23:01: Austerity militarism has been presented politically, in Europe at least as a form of sacrifice.

00:23:11: and so how much of this sort of new politics of sacrifice should we understand?

00:23:17: As a political narrative that makes austerity seem inevitable?

00:23:24: And how much of the constraint on welfare and redistributive spending is materially real.

00:23:31: So, for example in terms of debt inflation bond markets etc... ...and ultimately who are the winners & losers of austerity militarism?

00:23:43: We don't think to put it negatively that austerity military isn't purely discursive or, you know politically constructed thing.

00:23:55: I should put it differently.

00:23:56: we do think that there are real material constraints and... ...I've alluded to this already before.

00:24:07: i think one of those uh that can count into this is the read that state managers in Europe have off the security landscape?

00:24:20: Another very clear constraint is, depends on the case how significant that is but still it's the fiscal environment.

00:24:32: So what are interest rates like?

00:24:36: How are bond markets looking?

00:24:38: and especially in the British case there is a kind of perennial problem at this point.

00:24:44: The market there inverted commerce have become a real concern every time there's the budget coming around.

00:24:50: what is doable, can we reasonably finance?

00:24:53: What will be the reaction to it?

00:24:56: and while you obviously may have different opinions on how important that should be taken or not much weight.

00:25:02: We shouldn't touch too.

00:25:03: I think It is fair to say That There Is A Material Dimension To It And i Think Its Also Fair To Say That State Managers Certainly Act As If They Were Such A Material constrained even if you're reading might be that this is not as important, it's made to be.

00:25:19: So from that perspective we absolutely do think there are real constraints but... We also make the case.

00:25:31: they still have a political choice how to act in face of these constraints right?

00:25:39: It may very well There is a particularly difficult physical environment, but then there's still the question of how do we address this?

00:25:47: Do we address it by cutting welfare expenditure.

00:25:53: Do we do this by, I don't know discussing how pensions can be financed in the future or our disability benefits should look like?

00:26:01: Or how unemployment benefits should looked like in the German case.

00:26:06: We address these differently and speak about increases in taxation wealth taxes which would also be ways of addressing a similar topic.

00:26:16: so there is in the phase of material constraints, a political dimension to this.

00:26:24: We also think that there is another dimension of constraint and it comes out of fifteen years or so of austerity.

00:26:34: Scholars like Bob Jessup have introduced this idea of states having been transformed into an austerity polity which has this kind you address something by saving a little bit, there's an austerity politics that kind of abstracts from this and then ultimately we have the austerity polity which he defines I think as state where ultimately austerity has become supreme organising logic.

00:27:02: And i think it is not wrong certainly when were discussing The British Case.

00:27:06: So...I think theres'a real constraint That Is The Difficulty or maybe even impossibility of breaking with these kinds of logics and ways of arguing, so that they very well might be a politics of sacrifice.

00:27:24: That is not necessary strictly speaking but follows almost logically out of this fifteen years in terms of winners and losers.

00:27:35: if we have a conversation about it yesterday how how we interpret winners and losers in this.

00:27:42: I mean if you take the stance of many state managers then it is ultimately a question of producing, producing winners right?

00:27:50: It's ultimately an argument that says as i said earlier it gives us economic growth ,it gives us a new kind of identity or whatever national belonging and so on.

00:28:00: but i think in the short term and perhaps more realistically in the industries that are receiving quite a bit of stimulus here, so the defense industry and supply chains for those companies.

00:28:20: On top of this there is an interesting article by Alfredo Sartafilio and Jack Taggart which made it possible to see a massive financial dimension.

00:28:37: Investments have to be financed in some way or the other and the industries are to be fined somewhere as well so that a lot of the The winners would we had.

00:28:46: what has to be found?

00:28:46: In the financial world, in the tech world.

00:28:49: A lot of this is to do now also Of course with an eye-enabled Weapon system weapon systems and so on.

00:28:56: So I think there's winners to be fun.

00:28:59: Losers Well certainly those whose you know benefits will be scrapped If that is going ahead, for sure.

00:29:10: Joe sent me an article earlier today from this morning's Guardian about apparent concerns or ideas in the UK to scrap this boiler upgrade scheme To find money in order to invest into defense.

00:29:25: So there was a dimension.

00:29:27: here might be other industries In this case and people who are trying to you know address questions of energy as security green energy, climate change and so on.

00:29:40: So I think it's very much a mix back in terms of where winners or losers are lying?

00:30:06: with, you know, neoliberalism effectively around finance and how difficult it is to reshape and reframe them.

00:30:16: And so a lot of the ways in which the ideological constructed and discursive dimensions or sacrifice as they exist now are independent by this evolution of politics of military policy and debt that has significantly changed.

00:30:34: but austerity clearly did in different, you know national contexts and in different regional context have a very different politics.

00:30:44: but I guess particularly in Europe there was still

00:30:47: kind

00:30:47: of a reinvigoration of this idea that we suffer this pain of austerity because we have indulged too much for too long right which i think has then as a result COVID been revived found a new purpose in different political projects, but I think that's very much part of it.

00:31:09: So wrestling with this common sense how finances work and should work is clearly something state managers are trying to capitalise on and utilise and navigate.

00:31:23: the discursive realm.

00:31:29: thinking through that and the kind of ways in which also, the defence industry is capitalised on what's been happening post- Twenty-Twenty-Two relating to the winners point.

00:31:40: I think it's about thinking though those within defence establishments so at that nexus between the Defence Industry and State Managers and Ministries of Defence have been able sort of utilize what politicians have been doing to then manage, encourage contracts and trickle towards them in this moment.

00:32:04: And I think that further than some of the work that Malta mentioned, I think Kim Rogley at Commonwealth has done really interesting work for a while on identifying the role asset management as well who've become increasingly important to different states whether in the German case they come straight out of one of the biggest ones and go into be chancellor, or maybe not straight up but.

00:32:31: In Mertz & Blackrock all there ways which the sort of Starmer government has been quite openly courting similar scale asset management firms to do whatever investment it is that they need because restricted in what they can do, in terms of public investment.

00:32:52: So there's clearly a range of actors that benefit from this definitely and some financial actors are repositioning themselves.

00:32:59: so then also capitalise on the surge in defence spending I think.

00:33:04: just finally In terms of the losers... This came out at The Conversations At The Workshop.

00:33:08: There is very interesting generational dimension to it as well.

00:33:11: i think the role of pensions within that as well, it's a very sizable component.

00:33:20: But also then those who are suffering with mental health issues.

00:33:25: they're getting benefits taken away from disabilities and struggling to find work.

00:33:30: so I think its unclear exactly how will develop in different contexts.

00:33:35: but there is real political battle there i think In terms of government attempt target areas for cuts and how that feeds into different electoral coalitions, and who those there's different governments depend on.

00:33:53: Okay final question does the return of defence industrial policy complicate or undermine claims that we are witnessing a broader revival of state capitalism?

00:34:08: Or a post neo-liberal state?

00:34:12: just a nice easy question to finish.

00:34:15: yeah so I think Something we wanted to do in exploring this concept is obviously situate what's happening within these academic debates at the moment and that you know, the debate as too... The demise of neoliberalism by no means a new academic debate I suppose.

00:34:32: it has had many different iterations.

00:34:34: And there have been many different moments when different scholars have kind of theorised that

00:34:39: and

00:34:40: thought through how We might identify the beginnings of a shift away from a dominant kind in neoliberal model.

00:34:47: And I think that what?

00:34:49: I think we would say is that The role of the state is certainly changing and as much as there Is this real impetus towards something urgent In terms if national security terms with the rise of active conflict, and they're State intervention is becoming something that it's almost re-legitimized, I suppose in different ways.

00:35:12: So i think there are challenges associated with that but the need for states to provide basic provision of citizens which is national security right at heart about what going on particularly in Europe.

00:35:28: and so thats why we have many politicians trying claim and capitalize these different moments to rebuild something like a national purpose, which I think is intimately connected.

00:35:44: So we would certainly want to situate this within those accounts that are tracing the increasing role of the state and how it's been re-legitimized in different ways.

00:35:53: so The literature on State Capitalism has keyed to identifying you know...the growth of sovereign wealth funds..the growth off different protectionist measures the growth of different state intervention in various ways.

00:36:10: But we would also, I think... In trying to trace as i mentioned before the longer legacies of austerity want to say that it's a bit simplistic to just think this is more intervention or less.

00:36:23: like The State Is Always Playing A Role.

00:36:25: The State is shaping markets and creating conditions for either restraint And that was a key component of neoliberalism as well.

00:36:36: So I think we will be more sympathetic in thinking about austerity militarism, as a way of characterizing the different shifting role of states and how they're cultivating and creating conditions for investment in different areas.

00:36:51: so at the moment given the explosion of debt associated with COVID-IX Here we're kind of seeing that associated with a set of other conjugal factors, that have already laid out around the rise of conflict particularly in Europe.

00:37:08: And there we've got defence industry emerging as potential way of re-energising and reinvigorating economies.

00:37:17: I think growth is key to this right?

00:37:20: Malte has mentioned it but there's been such a paucity.

00:37:27: There's now one different sphere, which seems like a potential route that might have some legitimacy for it to develop.

00:37:34: Which is this sort of the basic military-industrial kind of narratives being rolled out... ...which I think is there and its states are capitalising onto some extent to try and revive this role?

00:37:47: I don't know if you want to add anything to that, Malta?

00:37:49: Yeah

00:37:50: perhaps just strengthen the point about how to understand I guess novelty perhaps a little bit, and you know the new roles of the state.

00:38:01: And so on.

00:38:02: certainly from my approach to the topic what I was also interested in with this larger question of transformation... ...and that i've always been skeptical of the political discourse specifically but also some degree academic discourse over the last couple years that presents their post-COVID world as a New World entirely.

00:38:24: which is not to say that I close my eyes and pretend nothing has changed, but it's more from my perspective how the change was conditioned by what came before.

00:38:39: And here... What austerity militarism shows us.

00:38:45: while states are trying something new they find increasingly difficult with certain habits, and certain logics.

00:38:57: Partially as we discussed earlier for more ideological reasons they've turned into austerity polities.

00:39:04: They also believe in a way that the state should be run.

00:39:09: There's long legacy to some degree criminalizing at least certainly questioning the benefits of welfare states in general, right?

00:39:19: New liberal arguments that go back decades about dependency inducing effects of welfare state and so on.

00:39:26: So then I think it's kind of coming through here into present day.

00:39:30: And then austerity has a material constraint as we've discussed earlier is also coming through for all the idea of ruptures.

00:39:37: i think there's quite a lot of legacy if you will That maintained Neo-liberalism, at least as long.

00:39:47: we want to understand austerity As something implemented in response To a crisis of neoliberalism In order to maintain it.

00:39:57: And I would argue that is still coming through.

00:40:00: So for me That's one of the fundamental points We're trying make with austerity and militarism.

00:40:08: In this context

00:40:10: I might just add One final point on which i think is important to note, so there's tracing those continuities as Malta says but I think that also then thinking about the kind of transnational picture and also thinking what was happening in a private sector.

00:40:28: To try an identify or trace where they might be elements of novelty In terms state market relations.

00:40:35: And i think thats something we don't really...i think..in our work on this so far and packing much depth in detail, but I think others are starting to do it a really interesting way.

00:40:48: And that when we think about what Europe's trying to do in terms of rearmament on the broader set programs initiatives have been launched under the underlying commission which is very interesting obviously reveal different tensions then between national projects and European level projects which would always be there, but certainly they're during austerity period.

00:41:12: But I think as we can see in national politics being strained in different ways at the moment And also on a private sector-level that growth through the post crisis period is prior to that of asset management firms.

00:41:31: high finance of big tech is now, they are now key players and trying to orient themselves massively in relation to what's happening with defense.

00:41:40: And what states doing?

00:41:41: because I realized that States kind more constrained by them independent on them.

00:41:46: so i think tracing some those elements also quite interesting.

00:41:49: thinking about state capitalism thinking about neoliberalism.

00:41:53: neoliberalisms facilitated the growth these different huge industries in various ways and the inequalities that are associated with them.

00:42:01: Maybe another aspect we could highlight here, when we speak about ruptures transformations is still neoliberalism.

00:42:09: I think a lot of arguments it isn't have to do this new role as state but what the tracing also shows our tracing in discussion on posterity militarism.

00:42:24: I think there's a very recent paper by Ian Ruff and Edward Townsend on this.

00:42:31: It is the argument that we shouldn't take for granted, it was always free markets and New York was about small states.

00:42:41: what we've traced with austerity militarism historically into the presence of that has never really been true which again then questions to some degree novelties Again, I guess speaks to the question that Joe raised very early on in his conversation.

00:42:59: That is underpinning our interest here.

00:43:02: what's the purpose of contemporary state or modern stage?

00:43:06: Is there a change as it actually maintained?

00:43:09: and at least from my personal perspective when i want to speak for Joe because you might see this slightly differently At the moment in these discussions, I tend to come down on more continuity than most comes.

00:43:21: And i feel like there is something in the austerity militars and discussions we're having that I see as evidence of that.

00:43:28: Fantastic!

00:43:29: Thank you so much folks.

00:43:31: if we have nothing more to add...I mean maybe could probably talk about this for the rest of the day?

00:43:37: If not then the rest for coming on the podcast and we look forward to the paper, coming out sometime soon.

00:43:49: Anyway thank you very much!

00:43:53: Thank You!

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